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Aug. 18th, 2004 @ 01:30 am a chock full of Judaism questions
Can anyone explain to me how modern Judaism (as in "reformed") got so far away from worshipping God (not just Christ) and moved so hardcore into valuing tradition?
I'm beginning to be personally of the conviction that the only true Jews are the Orthodox Jews. Any other form of Judaism doesn't make sense to me lately! Anyone else out there confused by reformed Judaism? Or can anyone shed some light?

And in addition, according to Christian doctrine on end times and salvation-
what does everyone think will happen to the reformed Jews? Do you think they will be part of the 144,000?
Is it the lineage that makes them precious to the Lord or the values or the fact that they recognize Him?

In addition, I have a dear friend who is Jewish, but really only Jewish for tradition. He feels very strongly about his heritage and his culture, but not really about his God. Anyone have any hints/clues how to discuss Christ with one of these modern Jews? Especially Jews who are violently anti- Christianity because of the history of the two religions?

*And a side story:
I was on the Metro back in April on my way to the March for Women's Lives and saw a group of students with their leaders from the RAC wearing yellow shirts with Scripture on them.
On the back of the shirt- in Hebrew-
Act Justly
Love mercy
Walk humbly March Proudly

-yes, the walk humbly bit was struck out-
(attributed to Micah 6:6-8)

and the real passage:

Micah 6:6-8

6 With what shall I come before the LORD
and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.

How can Judaism reconcile this?

and does anyone know about halachic law?
More specifically, anyone know what the following statement is all about?

"The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America (UOJCA) cannot endorse a public policy that does not reflect the complex response of halacha (Jewish law) to the abortion issue. In most circumstances the halacha proscribes abortion, but there are cases in which halacha permits and indeed mandates abortion. The question is a sensitive one and UOJCA feels that personal decisions in this area should be made in consultation with recognized halachic authorities."

ps- sorry so long and possibly unclear!
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Date:August 18th, 2004 06:20 am (UTC)
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I believe that ever since the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem and the loss of the Temple, Judaism turned rabbinic, more focused on using the Torah, the synagogues, the traditions as a cement to keep the Jewish people together whereas before that, the Temple was the focal point of Jewish identity.

Another possible cause might be Marxism. Karl Marx was a Jew after all. During Hitler's Holocaust, I've heard that the Jews looked upon their identity cynically as to why they were the chosen people when they were destined for the gas ovens of Auschwitz and other death camps.
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Date:August 18th, 2004 06:23 am (UTC)
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I am not sure about halacha. I think they're saying that in most instances, halacha forbids abortion although in some instances, halacha permits and mandates abortion.

To my knowledge, current Jewish law is made up of the Torah and the mandates of its rabbis. That's why they're referring to consultation with recognized halacha authorities. As usual, they're going to the rabbis for guidelines on what to do. Halacha today probably is made up of a lot of rabbinic dogma and strictly held Torah laws.
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Date:August 19th, 2004 08:30 pm (UTC)

re: Jewish stance on abortion

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"The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America (UOJCA) cannot endorse a public policy that does not reflect the complex response of halacha (Jewish law) to the abortion issue. In most circumstances the halacha proscribes abortion, but there are cases in which halacha permits and indeed mandates abortion. The question is a sensitive one and UOJCA feels that personal decisions in this area should be made in consultation with recognized halachic authorities."

Now, from that link you posted -

Jewish law is quite clear: while the fetus in the womb is to be protected as a potential human being, it has no personhood.

It is consideration for the woman involved... which becomes the determining factor in prohibiting or permitting an abortion.

A vast majority of Jewish thinkers agree that decision-making with respect to abortion must be left in the hands of the woman involved, her husband, he physician, and her rabbi.

First, a disclaimer. I am not Jewish, but they have a position paper on their site. Now, I read the PDF they have there, and it's rather interesting. Several items that deserve comment:

1. the rabbis hold that the fetus is "as the thigh of the mother." That is, it is not a person unto itself; its destruction deserves only monetary compensation per Exodus 21:22 et seq. There is no death penalty involved, which there would be if it were life itself and not just potential life.

2. It seems that most rabbis hold that ensoulment occurs at birth, but some hold that ensoulment occurs at conception, and all tend to think that the moment of ensoulment is one of the "mysteries of God" that is not for men to know yet.

3. The fetus is not more important than the mother carrying it. The fetus is only potential life; the mother is fully alive. Therefore, if the mother's life is threatened, not only does she have the right to destroy it, but any doctor present at "hard labor" (where the mother's life is threatened) can destroy the fetus (a piece at a time if need be) to save the mother's life.

4. The future life of the fetus is not of no consequence, but the pain the resulting human might experience or the length or quality of its life are not considerations, for we are not to judge what its life might be like; that is in the hands of the Supreme Judge who is God. The pain of the mother and her life are the primary considerations.

All four major non-Orthodox Jewish sects (Reconstruction, Reform, Conservative, and Humanist) are on record as opposed to governmental intervention in abortion. Many Orthodox rabbis take the same position.

Their primary take is that abortion should be decided by the woman, her husband, their rabbi, and her physician.

The position paper sums up in 3 points:

a. A woman's life, her pain, and her concerns take precedence over those of the fetus.

b. existing life is always sacred and takes precedence over potential life.

c. a woman has the personal freedom to apply the principles of her tradition unfettered by the legal imposition of moral standards other than her own.

All of this to say that while they frown on abortion for purposes of birth control (which it is generally used for in this country), they permit it for a variety of reasons, and mandate it for some (if the life of the mother would be saved by aborting the fetus).

Whew. Actually it's a very interesting document, and very cogently argued.

Furthermore, many of these arguments derive from 12th century and 13th century rabbis.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand where they're coming from.

Date:August 20th, 2004 10:27 pm (UTC)

jewish, 144, 000

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It is clear that there is only one wasy to the Father and that is through belief on Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. So, even the 144,000 will be born-again completed Jews. But what gets me is when Christians seem to think there is one way for gentiles and one way for Jews. And they never give them the Gospel. But if we remember that at first the Gospel was preached to the Jews and then God gave Peter a vision of salvation coming to the gentiles.
I sure dont want to be one of the 144,000. When Jesus comes, I want 'outta here!!!! :)
However, salvation for the Jewish, Orthodox or Reformed, is and will always be the same as it is for every one else. The Cross.

The lineage didnt seem to make a difference in King Saul's case, he was rejected from being king and his whole family was taken out and David put in.

When I read the posting regarding the declarations of the Halacha concerning fetus/mother, my blood boils.
I remember reading in Deut where it was written if two people are fighting and they hit a mother in a way so as to cause her miscarry, the same person is guilty of two deaths.

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Date:August 23rd, 2004 12:12 am (UTC)

Re: jewish, 144, 000

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Amen to that.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life." - Jesus

"There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death." - Solomon, in Proverbs.

Those 144,000...

Ya gotta remember - Revelation, even among "literalist" Christians, is typically looked at as symbolism. And I think that's mostly correct. For example, among the 144,000 there are 12 thousand from each of 12 tribes - and 12 often symbolizes completeness. So it may mean "all the saved from this tribe" and not a literal 12,000 from each tribe. And, the Jews were only one of the tribes of Israel.

For that matter, I think that there are more than 144,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S. - so the numbers are almost certainly symbolic.

But I digress.
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Date:September 10th, 2004 11:23 pm (UTC)
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sorry im just putting this here in the hope of an answer. how can people consider themselves "good people" when they force thier religieons and thier bneliefs and way upon others and dercriminate other faiths. i recently found this(below) here on live journal. i must say, this distresses me quite a bit. can you explain this to me?
If Your Child is a Gothic, Reform Through the Lord!

Listed below are some warning signs to indicate if your
child may have gone astray from the Lord.

Gothic (or goth) is a very obscure and often dangerous culture that young teenagers are prone to participating in. The gothic culture leads young, susceptible minds into an imagined world of evil, darkness, and violence. Please seek immediate attention through counselling, prayer, and parental guidance to rid your child of Satan's temptations if five or more of the following are applicable to your child:

-Frequently wears black clothing.

-Wears band and/or rock t-shirts.

-Wears excessive black eye makeup, lipstick or nailpolish.

-Wears any odd, silver jewelry or symbols. Some of these include:
reversed crosses, pentagrams, pentacles, ankhs or various other
Satanic worshipping symbols.

-Shows an interest in piercings or tattoos.

-Listens to gothic or any other anti-social genres of
music. (Marilyn Manson claims to be the anti-Christ, and publicly speaks
against the Lord. Please discard any such albums IMMEDIATELY.)

-Associates with other people that dress, act or speak

-Shows a declining interest in wholesome activities, such
as: the Bible, prayer, church or sports.

-Shows an increasing interest in death, vampires, magic,
the occult, witchcraft or anything else that involves Satan.

-Takes drugs.

-Drinks alcohol.

-Is suicidal and/or depressed.

-Cuts, burns or partakes in any other method of self-mutilation. (This is a Satanic ritual that uses pain to detract from the light of God and His love. Please seek immediate attention for this at your local mental health center.)

-Complains of boredom.

-Sleeps too excessively or too little.

-Is excessively awake during the night.

-Dislikes sunlight or any other form of light. (This pertains to
vampires promoting the idea that His light is of no use.)

-Demands an unusual amount of privacy.

-Spends large amounts of time alone.

-Requests time alone and quietness. (This is so that your chid may speak to evil sprits through meditation.)

-Insists on spending time with friends while unaccompanied by an adult..

-Disregards authority figures; teachers, priests, nuns and
elders are but a few examples of this.

-Misbehaves at school.

-Misbehaves at home.

-Eats excessively or too little.

-Eats goth-related foods. Count Dracula cereal is an example of this.

-Drinks blood or expresses an interest in drinking blood.
(Vampires believe this is how to attain Satan. This act is very dangerous and should be stopped immediately.)

-Watches cable television or any other corrupted media
sources. (Ask your local church for proper programs that your child may watch.)

-Plays videos games that contains violence or role-playing nature.

-Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.

-Makes Satanic symbols and/or violently shakes head to music.

-Dances to music in a provocative or sexual manner.

-Expresses an interest in sex.


-Is homosexual and/or bisexual.

-Pursues dangerous cult religions. Such include: Satanism, Scientology, Philosophy, Paganism, Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism.

-Wears pins, stickers or anything else that contains these various phrases: "I'm so gothic, I'm dead", "woe is me", "I'm a goth".

-Claims to be a goth.

If five or more of these apply to your child, please intervene immediately. The gothic culture is dangerous and Satan thrives within it. If any of these problems persist, enlist your child into your local mental health center.

~St. Mary's Catholic Church
the peopple who wrote this text are seriously misinformed. thank you for any answer-cat